11:05 < jzb> OK, let's get started
11:05 < jzb> anyone who's not here, please speak up
11:05 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 15 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal
11:05 < chipc> ha ha ha
11:06 < chipc> (wink)
11:06 < vogxn> (smile)
11:06 < bhaisaab> (smile)
11:06 < jzb> No meetbot today,long story
11:06 < chipc> jzb: you'll pull the transcript anyway?
11:06 < jzb> chipc: yes
11:06 < chipc> thx
11:06 < bhaisaab> jzb: no problem, I've us logged http://bhaisaab.org/irc/cloudstack-meeting/%23cloudstack-meeting.2013-01-16.log.html
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11:07 < jzb> as promised, we're starting in reverse alpha order this week
11:07 < jzb> widodh: you're up! Anything to discuss or report this week?
11:08 < chipc> wasn't widodh the one that asked for reverse alpha last week (wink)
11:09 < jzb> chipc: I seem to think that was the case, yes.
11:09 < jzb> OK, we'll move on.
11:09 < vogxn> chipc: was me actually (smile)
11:09 < jzb> vogxn: good news, then
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11:09 < vogxn> i have couple of updates
11:09 < jzb> vogxn: you're up. Anything to discuss or report?
11:09 < vogxn> finished up the devcloud in CI to keep tests going per chekcin and documented it on the wiki
11:10 < vogxn> will have it setup for adv zone runs once devcloud-kvm is up and going
11:10 * bhaisaab gives kudos to vogxn
11:10 < chipc> vogxn: that's sweet
11:10 < vogxn> 2ndly - i'm going to propose a small refactor of the integration library marvin uses for speeding up test automation
11:11 < vogxn> this is mostly to make it intuitive and consistent for test writers
11:11 < vogxn> i'l bring up the thread for discussion and work on a feature branch so we don't break tests that will be set up to run
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11:11 < vogxn> which is the 3rd item - the runs for the entire suite of tests and the documentation on how that larger system works
11:12 < vogxn> still a draft at this point
11:12 < bhaisaab> vogxn: cool, we gotta make marvin work with api discovery as well
11:12 < vogxn> bhaisaab: yes! man - i'll look at that too
11:12 < vogxn> :
11:12 < vogxn> (smile)
11:12 < jzb> #action vogxn will bring up a proposal to refactor the integration library for Marvin to speed up test automation.
11:12 < vogxn> so those are my items
11:12 < jzb> vogxn: thanks!
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11:13 < jzb> vogxn: well worth changing the starting order (smile)
11:13 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 17 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal
11:13 < jzb> u-ichi: you're up - anything to discuss or report this week?
11:13 < vogxn> jzb: thanks (smile)
11:14 < jzb> OK, moving on
11:14 < jzb> topcloud: anything to discuss or report?
11:14 < topcloud> yes...an update on javelin.
11:15 < topcloud> we have a server up and running finally. just testing the current apis by hand. still building with skiptest so we'll be tackling that next.
11:15 < chipc> topcloud: that sounds like good progress
11:16 < chipc> are you merging master into the branch daily?
11:16 < topcloud> we pulled on friday and haven't since.
11:17 < chipc> I don't think there is anything critical since Friday, but it might be worth keeping up a regular pull schedule until you merge into master
11:17 < topcloud> yup...agreed....given all that's happening on master.
11:17 < chipc> just my 2 cents (wink)
11:17 < topcloud> so that's it from me.
11:18 < jzb> topcloud: thanks!
11:18 < jzb> sudhap: you're next - anything to discuss or report?
11:18 < sudhap> went over all the stories which are resolved/in progress
11:19 < sudhap> few QA engineers have taken ownership for several stories
11:19 < chipc> sudhap: I see lots of FS questions being raised, but many are going unanswered… how big of an issue do you think that it?
11:20 < sudhap> chipc: Yes that is one of the issues wanted to bring up today
11:20 < sudhap> chipc: QA engineers also raised the same that it would prevent them to finalize test plans
11:21 < sudhap> they are waiting on the responses
11:21 < chipc> indeed, sounds like a problem
11:21 < chipc> I guess some emails to specific people, cc-ing dev to get attention is warrented
11:21 < ke4qqq> sounds like a blocker for that feature
11:21 < chipc> indeed
11:21 < sudhap> FS need to be updated with issues raised
11:22 < topcloud> so here's my standard.....Animesh, comments?
11:22 < Animesh> well ofcourse I will need to follow up, i have been busy with IP clearance but should be free today to look at 4.1
11:22 < jzb> Am I the only person who dislikes having to CC people specifically to get their attention?
11:23 < chipc> jzb: no, you aren't
11:23 < ke4qqq> no
11:23 < topcloud> i dislike it too.
11:23 < vogxn> well me too. i think as committers onus is upon us to respond in time
11:23 < vogxn> or at least inform that we're investigating.
11:23 < sudhap> jzb: I explicitly asked QA engineers to CC so they get attention
11:23 * ke4qqq thinks that if you can't participate in the mailing list....there is a fundamental problem
11:23 < jzb> +1
11:24 < topcloud> especially since i wrote on email guidelines that you should wait a little bit before ccing. so i end up waiting and waiting and forget what i'm waiting for.
11:24 < ke4qqq> sudhap: yeah - but the problem isn't with CCing - it's that members of our community aren't watching the list, and need to be contacted directly.
11:24 < jzb> sudhap: I realize there's a ton of mail, and it's understandable that people miss a message now and again
11:24 < jzb> but - what ke4qqq said.
11:24 < topcloud> animesh: i think part of the problem is we still didn't get the workflow down.
11:24 < topcloud> on jira
11:25 < Animesh> topcloud: folks have been asked to update tehir status weekly in jira
11:25 < chipc> topcloud: but watching the list, especially scanning for subjects that you are supposed to be interested in, should be more than easy
11:25 < Animesh> i have sent reminders as well as chip
11:25 < sudhap> topcloud: I have asked QA to update JIRA ticket as well with same questions so if feature owner is watching it they would get attention
11:25 < chipc> sudhap: let's get a list of blocked feature testing… and then let's start discussing what to do on list… but IMO that's a blocker for inclusion in a release
11:25 < vogxn> i did see a barrage of features come in last min. may be the FS is still a WIP for most of them?
11:26 < sudhap> chipc: sure
11:26 < chipc> vogxn: except that on-list discussion is where we should refine the FS
11:26 < ke4qqq> indeed
11:26 < vogxn> agreed.
11:26 < vogxn> i'll chase some folks local to me (smile)
11:26 < ke4qqq> if discussion happens in jira we are never moving the jira mails away from -dev
11:26 < bhaisaab> vogxn: you do that (smile)
11:26 < chipc> Basically, IMO, it's fine if someone isn't interested in doing a feature that they said they would do
11:27 < chipc> and "doing a feature" involves talking about it, and answering questions
11:27 < sudhap> vogxn: I see even person who provided requirements have questions on FS - those need to be corrected otherwise there is big gap on what is the feature supposed to do and how it is being implemented
11:27 < vogxn> +1 sudha
11:27 < bhaisaab> ke4qqq: it's unlikely that people won't have discussions on jira, review board
11:27 < vogxn> i also see some are incomplete
11:27 < vogxn> requirement was thrown and forgotten on some
11:27 < sudhap> aws style region is one example of such
11:27 < chipc> sudhap: yes, and that one's a big one
11:28 < chipc> ok - let's get the list together and start having the real conversation about things being pulled from the release
11:28 < sudhap> chipc: so I would rely on animesh's follow up and JIRA updates for test plans in progress
11:28 < ke4qqq> +1 - pull earlier rather than later
11:28 < jzb> do we need a doc on "how to have a conversation" / "use + juggle ML, Jira and Review Board"?
11:28 < ke4qqq> sudhap: if we have to rely on animesh we have gigantic problems IMO.
11:29 < ke4qqq> we can't use animesh as our person chasing people with a stick
11:29 < chipc> jzb: amazingly, perhaps we do
11:29 < ke4qqq> all the time
11:29 < jzb> chipc: who's pulling the list of features together, etc.?
11:29 < Animesh> ke4qqq: thanks for speaking for me, folks have been unresponsive at times
11:30 < jzb> #action jzb start wiki page on "how to discuss/use Jira, ML, and RB"
11:30 < chipc> I was asking sudhap to try to get a list of stuff blocked from a QA perspective
11:30 < topcloud> wasn't there a holiday on monday in india? Let's give them a bit more time to respond.
11:30 < chipc> if she's OK with it
11:30 < jzb> sudhap: ?
11:30 < jzb> are you OK with it?
11:30 < Animesh> and its best if all stakeholders put the pressure
11:30 < sudhap> sure
11:30 < chipc> Animesh: yes, we'll all help
11:30 < bhaisaab> oh, yes Mondday for India was a holiday (makar sankranti – festical of kites)
11:30 < jzb> #action sudhap pull list of stuff blocked from QA perspective
11:31 < sudhap> second issue is there are some stories which are dependent on others
11:31 < sudhap> like S3 implementation
11:31 * ke4qqq musg google sankranti
11:31 < sudhap> I am hoping that those developers are in sync with each other - this is just one example that I came across
11:32 < chipc> sudhap: yup, me too… but I think that it's not necessarily the case there either
11:32 < chipc> looks like we might have a much lighter 4.1 release than was proposed…
11:32 < chipc> but that's ok - we're doing time-based releases
11:32 < ke4qqq> yep
11:32 < jzb> sudhap: any other issues?
11:33 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 17 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal
11:33 < sudhap> jzb: closing some of the stories
11:33 < sudhap> which may not need QA or can be closed by checking some of the automation results etc
11:33 < sudhap> In any case if I have to summarize where QA is - reviewsing FS/ writing test plan
11:34 < sudhap> will be bringing those for review to forum by early next week - I asked all QA to close and lockdown test plans by 31st
11:34 < noa> excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by FS in this context?
11:34 < sudhap> hoep that timeline is ok
11:34 < topcloud> functional spec
11:34 < noa> ok. Thanks
11:34 < chipc> noa: Functional Specification… it's the design document we use to collaborate on how a new feature will be designed
11:35 < sudhap> wanted to close 1 cycle of QA by end of Feb
11:35 < sudhap> Time is not realistic though
11:35 < jzb> chipc: (or anyone else) any comments on the timeline?
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11:35 < chipc> just a sec
11:36 < chipc> that's in line with the release schedule: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/CloudStack+4.1+Release
11:36 < sudhap> yes I planned it along with release dates on paper
11:36 < chipc> yeah, figured that (wink)
11:37 < jzb> +1 for planning
11:37 < jzb> I love when a plan comes together.
11:37 < jzb> sudhap: thanks!
11:37 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 16 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 16 normal
11:37 < chipc> good discussion sudhap
11:37 < chipc> thanks
11:37 < jzb> serverchief: looks like you're next - anything to discuss or report?
11:39 < jzb> ok
11:39 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 16 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 16 normal
11:39 < jzb> Noah: anything to discuss or report this week?
11:39 < Noah> nope. apologies for my absence. dealing with some personal stuff this week
11:40 < jzb> Noah: no worries. Thanks!
11:40 < jzb> noa: anything on your end to discuss or report?
11:40 < chipc> Noah: may I use your name on the IP clearance process for the Citrix test suite submission? We are pending an SGA from Citrix, and then I can provide you with the form
11:40 < Noah> yes
11:40 < chipc> Noah: thanks
11:40 < noa> jzb: not much of the tangible sort. I have booked travels to BACD in Ghent
11:41 < Noah> ping me if i need to attend to threads. i have been distracted
11:41 < noa> We have a sprint deadline this week, so cloudstack stuff gets down prioritized
11:41 < jzb> noa: OK. Have fun in Ghent!
11:41 < noa> I'm a little worried that the packaging work will be a lot of work to merge, something to discuss with widodh
11:42 < noa> other than that, nothing to report
11:42 < chipc> noa: I was going to ask how that's going… it's going to be problematic to test the release without it being done (wink)
11:42 < noa> chipc: yes, we need something in place soon. I plan to spend significant time on it this weekend
11:42 < chipc> that would be fantastic of you
11:43 < jzb> noa: anything that others can help with?
11:43 < chipc> and we appreciate all the help you've been providing noa
11:43 < vogxn> noa: much appreciated!
11:43 < jzb> +1
11:43 < noa> jzb: feel free to fix things in the branch (smile)
11:43 < noa> just ask me if you want write access
11:44 < noa> https://github.com/noaresare/incubator-cloudstack/commits/packaging
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11:44 < jzb> noa: OK. Thanks
11:44 < jzb> ke4qqq: looks like you're up. Anything to discuss or report this week?
11:45 < ke4qqq> nope not really
11:45 < jzb> OK
11:45 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 16 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 16 normal
11:45 < jzb> so that means I'm next
11:46 < jzb> Still waiting on CLOUDSTACK-615 to be resolved.
11:46 < jzb> for 4.0.1.
11:46 < sudhap> jzb:me too
11:46 < jzb> We also have a new bug reported, but unless I can verify it and/or get more information from the reporter or further confirmation, I'm going to bump that.
11:46 < sudhap> jzb: there seem to be another issue against 401
11:47 < jzb> CLOUDSTACK-976
11:47 < jzb> sudhap: is that the one you're referring to?
11:48 < sudhap> jzb: no - vpc on kvm seem to have problems
11:48 < sudhap> I am getting this investigated - no defect yet
11:48 < bhaisaab> sudhap, jzb it was easy, but, nevertheless, in nonoss profile just add dependency in client/pom.xml and no need to manually place jars in web-inf/libs
11:49 < bhaisaab> I'll follow this with sateesh
11:49 < jzb> sudhap: what's the Jira number for that?
11:49 < ke4qqq> can you make sure this bubbles up to the mailnig list so that marcus sees it?
11:49 < sudhap> jzb: no defect yet
11:50 * bhaisaab ke4qqq me?
11:50 < jzb> sudhap: OK...
11:50 < sudhap> following up on it as sheng has asked me about it - will bring it up to the thread - waiting on test results also need to confirm if that is actually supported
11:50 < sudhap> initial test seem to fail
11:50 < sudhap> I will get the defect and discussion to the mailing list today
11:50 < vogxn> marcus did the feature so a jira report and a bump on the ML will help
11:50 < jzb> sudhap: I may move that to 4.0.2
11:50 < sudhap> jzb: sure
11:51 < ke4qqq> bhaisaab: no sudhap - re vpc for kvm
11:51 < bhaisaab> oh okay
11:51 < jzb> aside from 4.0.1, two minor things
11:52 < jzb> 1) Weekly News - feel free to add news to the wiki
11:52 < jzb> it will be much more effective/useful if it's a collaborative effort
11:53 < sudhap> jzb: I will add QA Scrum meeting minutes link to the news
11:53 < jzb> sudhap: thank you
11:53 < bhaisaab> jzb: we need a blog/magazine can be biweekly or monthly (smile)
11:53 < vogxn> bhaisaab: the weekly news first sir (smile)
11:53 < bhaisaab> jzb: great initiative
11:53 < jzb> bhaisaab: one publicatoin at a time. (wink)
11:53 < jzb> er, publication
11:53 < vogxn> jzb: i'l see if i can add a line or two
11:53 < bhaisaab> jzb: haha okay!
11:53 < noa> I need to go now. See you around (smile)
11:54 * ke4qqq needs to do the same
11:54 < jzb> 2) I'll send a note to the list on this, but I'm going to start working on tools for people to host their own CloudStack events or promote it
11:54 < chipc> great idea
11:55 < jzb> would like to have several canned presentations and other materials to help people promote cloudstack
11:55 < jzb> #action jzb start wiki page for CloudStack promotional materials, begin work on standard presentations
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11:55 < jzb> any feedback or help with that would be appreciated.
11:56 < jzb> that's it for me. Note that I won't be able to run the meeting next week, as I'm going to be in Australia.
11:56 < topcloud> jzb: I added a page in the community section for events listing.
11:56 < topcloud> jzb: there's also a section in community for people to list their local user groups.
11:56 < jzb> and the 17:00 UTC meeting on Wednesday is something like 04:00 Thursday in AU
11:56 < jzb> topcloud: OK
11:57 ! Irssi: #cloudstack-meeting: Total of 15 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal
11:57 < jzb> edison_cs: looks like you're next - anything to discuss or report?
11:57 < topcloud> in case you can use them.
11:57 < topcloud> edison's not here.
11:58 < jzb> alrighty
11:58 < jzb> csears: howdy - anything to discuss or report?
11:58 < csears> nope, I'm good, thanks
11:58 < jzb> alrighty
11:58 < jzb> chipc: I'm guessing you have something this week. (smile)
11:59 < chipc> quick update on the feature / improvement overall status for 4.1.0: 95 total, 3 closed, 13 resolved, 18 in progress, 4 reopened, and 56 that appear to not be in progress at all (no status update)
11:59 < chipc> reminder to everyone that we are freezing new features / merges / etc… at the end of Jan
11:59 < jzb> chipc: do you have a link for the 56 w/no status update?
12:00 < chipc> jzb: I think I'm going to send out a release status summary today
12:00 * jzb wonders if you can do a search in Jira by last update
12:00 < chipc> I'll include that
12:00 < jzb> chipc: cool
12:00 < chipc> jzb: you can
12:01 < chipc> but I'm going to remind folks that we have 15 days remaining, and also reiterate the request for (1) communication with testers, (2) updates on status
12:01 < chipc> and that's actually all I have…
12:02 < jzb> #action chipc will send release summary to mailing list today
12:02 < jzb> thanks chipc
12:02 < chipc> ya
12:02 < jzb> bhaisaab: anything to discuss or report this week?
12:02 < bhaisaab> yes, to report;
12:02 < bhaisaab> apidiscovery works
12:03 < bhaisaab> have moved commands.props files in one, so admins would use only one file to blacklist/white-list and change role based acl
12:04 < bhaisaab> still waiting for comments on discussion about plugins, packaging plugins separately and working on cloudmonkey to support api discovery
12:04 < bhaisaab> that's about it
12:04 < jzb> bhaisaab: OK. Thanks!
12:04 < jzb> Animesh: anything to discuss or report this week?
12:05 < Animesh> ofcourse i have updateds on ip clearance
12:05 < Animesh> there are 8 issues we are following
12:05 < Animesh> 2 of them vote has been called, required reverts are done, 6 are waiting for code posting
12:06 < chipc> I didn't see a second VOTE thread… which subject line is it?
12:06 < Animesh> 1 issue most likely is trivial and may not need ip clearance
12:06 < Animesh> ok its is missing VOTE prefix, I will repost it it's from Sheng
12:07 < chipc> thx
12:07 < Animesh> I will start following up on 4.1 today
12:07 < jzb> Animesh: thanks - any other issues?
12:08 < Animesh> no none other than discussed already like unresponsive threads
12:08 < chipc> Animesh: I think the real question is why do you need to follow up… perhaps ask that too?
12:09 < Animesh> well i am trying to fill in the blanks
12:09 < jzb> #action Animesh will follow up on IP clearance, re-send email calling for vote with proper VOTE prefix
12:09 < Animesh> but you are right all stakeholders need to follow up
12:09 < chipc> Animesh: I'm not questioning your support in following up with folks… I appreciate it
12:10 < chipc> I'm fishing to understand the reason that a committer wouldn't watch the list for topics related to their focus area
12:10 < chipc> anyway, that's all
12:11 < jzb> have we missed anyone?
12:11 < Animesh> i guess we should ask them to create mail filters for their watch list so that it does not get drowned in other email noise
12:11 < vogxn> i doubt if the reason is missing the email
12:11 < jzb> vogxn: you have another theory? (smile)
12:12 < vogxn> i think they need a prod to respond if they are investigating
12:12 < vogxn> or that they need to discuss on list if osmething is unclear
12:13 < chipc> well, I guess that's the question then… what's up? why are responses not coming?
12:14 < chipc> anyway, sorry to hijack your turn Animesh
12:14 < topcloud> the way i see it is like this.
12:14 < topcloud> we have to understand they are both committers and employee of a company
12:15 < topcloud> to them they participate on the list but only to their interest is only to their feature.
12:15 < topcloud> it is very difficult for them to keep checking mailing list if they have other things to do.
12:15 < jzb> topcloud: that doesn't rise to the level of "committer" IMHO
12:16 < topcloud> jzb: so i've been struggling with that too.
12:16 < topcloud> the committer status is a status for people who's "committed" to the committee
12:16 < topcloud> but currently it carries the a dual role.
12:17 < topcloud> of people who's committed to the community and someone who can commit code.
12:17 < topcloud> perhaps we need to separate the two?
12:17 < jzb> topcloud: not sure I'm following
12:18 < jzb> the point of the Apache project is to grow the community. Giving or allowing commit access by folks who are not participating in the community goes against that.
12:18 < bhaisaab> topcloud: are you suggesting we re-evaluate committer status of committers?
12:19 < jzb> to put it another way - the onus is on the employer to figure out how to make this work, not the Apache project.
12:19 < chipc> the right to commit code is one of the permissions granted to project committers, and a project committer is supposed to be committed to the project's community
12:19 < chipc> the right to contribute code is for anyone in the world that wants to contribute to the project
12:19 < chipc> but contribution != commit rights
12:20 < topcloud> jzb: i see it differently. i think to grow a community you need to make it a easy to understand and follow.
12:21 < jzb> topcloud: we (the Apache project) provide tools that make the project easy to contribute to and follow along with
12:21 < jzb> and also to level the field so all committers have the same access, privileges, etc.
12:21 < jzb> giving certain folks access without responsibility goes against that.
12:21 < jzb> and would disincent people who don't work for $employer to contribute
12:22 < jzb> again: this is something $employer needs to figure out, not the community
12:22 < chipc> jzb: but topcloud has a point about needing to make things easy, and embracing contributions
12:22 < chipc> these aren't mutually exclusive thoughts
12:22 < jzb> chipc: no
12:22 < jzb> they're not mutually exclusive.
12:22 < topcloud> yes...i'm really just thinking in terms of a guy who's contributing.
12:23 < jzb> what is it that we could do, reasonably, to make things easier?
12:23 < topcloud> that's what i struggle with. what's the right combination?
12:23 < chipc> jzb: I'm honestly stuck on that one… because I can't figure out what the actual problem is. that's why I asked if Animesh would try to figure that out
12:24 < Animesh> well communication efficiency is one issue in my opinion
12:24 < chipc> however, I'll take a slightly different angle to this… if you are a committer, then this exact problem should be on your mind, and you should be participating in the discussion about how to fix this
12:24 < jzb> Animesh: could you expand on that?
12:25 < Animesh> well email traffic on mailing list is high and at times it becomes noise and folks cannnot keep pace with it
12:27 < topcloud> so i've heard that a few times and suggest it a few times but i echo what chipc says: tracking your topic in subject should not be a problem.
12:27 < Animesh> like just the case for 615 I see sateesh asked a question to Hugo on Jira, i am not sure if Hugo is aware that he is being asked something unless he is watching jira emails which most folks filter
12:28 < topcloud> ah...that's good....that's a good use case to understand.
12:28 < Animesh> I suggest people create filters for subjects they need to track at the minmum
12:28 < jzb> Animesh: so, I check Jira a few times a day
12:28 < jzb> by going to the Web site - why can't they do that?
12:29 < jzb> they know they have issues in Jira that need to be tended to.
12:30 < jzb> Animesh: on this end, it seems there's some passivity in tending to ACS issues.
12:30 < Animesh> well I do too, but still things sit around in review board and jira
12:30 < chipc> so that example, the one where Hugo was asked a question, is one of the times that I would expect him to have missed it… because (1) he wasn't involved in that issue, (2) he wasn't assigned the bug, and (3) he wasn't on the watch list for it… that's very different from not responding to your own DISCUSS or PROPOSE thread
12:30 < jzb> +1
12:31 < bhaisaab> +1
12:31 < Animesh> chipc: yes that's different and in this case I suggest we cc the person in email on dev list
12:31 < bhaisaab> folks, let's bring this discussion on the ML, no point in doing it here, people may miss this
12:31 < bhaisaab> and end the meeting
12:31 < topcloud> i agree that breakdown happens even in enterprise. ask question on jira without assigning the bug to that person is useless.
12:32 < jzb> bhaisaab: apparently they'll miss it on the ML too... (wink)
12:32 < topcloud> bhaisaab: i guess this issue is stuck in my mind so much i'm happy to talk to anyone who's willing to talk about it now.
12:32 < bhaisaab> jzb: (smile) yes but compare th numbers here vs on ml
12:32 < vogxn> topcloud: +1
12:33 < jzb> OK, we'll consider this horse appropriately flogged
12:33 < bhaisaab> topcloud: +1 you start a thread on ml or chipc or jzb or any ppmc should
12:34 < topcloud> bhaisaab: actually i think the thread's been started before but it dies on the ml.
12:34 < jzb> I'm seriously going to work on a page for herding/participating in discussions
12:34 < jzb> so I'll take that
12:34 < chipc> yes, so let's bring it back…
12:34 < vogxn> the same committers won't respond
12:34 < vogxn> when their partiicpation is called into question
12:34 < vogxn> and it dies out
12:34 < vogxn> IMO
12:34 < jzb> #action jzb resurrect ML thread on participation
12:34 < bhaisaab> committers need to be reminded they are committed to the project/community
12:34 < chipc> well, then we can pontificate via email just as well as on IRC - and there's a chance that they will wake up to it
12:35 < topcloud> but before we go. i do think we don't have enough guidelines for how people behave at diffrerent places.
12:35 < jzb> topcloud: sorry?
12:35 < topcloud> for a lot of us here, it's not an issue because we think about these things and is proactive about pursuing issues.
12:36 < topcloud> but think about people who are not like that. then they need guidelines to say look do this on jira when you ask a question...
12:36 < topcloud> reassign the bug if you're asking someone a question for example.
12:36 < topcloud> so let me take one concrete example.
12:36 < jzb> topcloud: OK, that goes to the wiki page / guide I'm writing.
12:36 < jzb> (examples welcome)
12:37 < topcloud> for the feature submissions, we have the feature submission guideline.
12:37 < topcloud> we've been able to refer to people to it.
12:37 < topcloud> and i think that actually has gone pretty well
12:37 < topcloud> once people have something they should follow.
12:37 < chipc> it has, and it was a good propsal
12:37 < topcloud> just imagine wiping the slate clean...there are no committers on the project other than the ones here.
12:38 < topcloud> every other "committer" is new to cloudstack community
12:38 < topcloud> they have a lot of questions about how to do things.
12:38 < topcloud> the process to do things....how they should behave on review board, wiki, mailing list, etc.
12:39 < jzb> topcloud: if we can solve this with documentation, then I'm happy to document the hell out of everything
12:40 < chipc> topcloud: so I agree that we can document more processes, to make it easier to get involved… I think that's nothing but goodness
12:40 < topcloud> jzb: we can help....i'm just pointing out that we should think like that.
12:40 < topcloud> to me, some will ask when they don't know. some will stay silent.
12:40 < chipc> however, I'm serious when I say that I don't understand / accept that if you start a proposal, that you can't be bothered to respond to feedback and questions
12:40 ! csears ~Adium@c-24-99-161-151.hsd1.ga.comcast.net has quit Leaving.
12:41 < topcloud> no that one i don't understand also.
12:41 < chipc> that is the most concerning issue for me right now… we can ALWAYs work out better processes
12:41 < chipc> we're here to help each other as a community
12:41 < jzb> chipc: +1
12:41 < chipc> but if someone is a committer, and doesn't bother to engage in the conversation that they started, then I argue that they are not committed
12:42 < vogxn> chipc: should we nip the proposal in the bud if not responded to within 72h?
12:42 < chipc> vogxn - I don't think we should approach this with process really
12:42 < chipc> the issue is when there isn't a response, and then things progress as if the question wasn't raised…
12:43 < topcloud> chipc: +1 that's education. i think that feedback needs to go back to the people.
12:43 < topcloud> committers.
12:43 < chipc> people need to understand that they didn't actually reach consensus in the community on the idea
12:43 < bhaisaab> chipc: that's true, as ppmc one can question one's commitship
12:43 < vogxn> as i saw it - most of the questions raised were not on proposals made by committers
12:44 < vogxn> correct me if i'm wrong
12:44 < bhaisaab> but we need to educate them, ask them to re-read the cla and wiki jzb will create
12:44 < edison_cs> one thing I want to point out, we should encourage people cc mail to other people he think should be interested in the topic he want to talk
12:44 * bhaisaab o/ edison_cs
12:44 < jzb> edison_cs: I really, really, massively oppose that
12:44 < bhaisaab> edison_cs: but a lot of folks don't like being cc-ed
12:44 < chipc> vogxn: I can think of commiter examples
12:45 < edison_cs> I can't read all the emails on mailing list
12:45 < edison_cs> so likely, i'll miss emails
12:45 < jzb> that is horrible, horrible community hygine and netiquette
12:45 < jzb> both requiring people to CC you and being CC'ed
12:45 < chipc> vogxn: but as for contributors, the same thing applies really
12:45 < bhaisaab> edison_cs: I think we should give peple time to respond and if we thinkthey are not responding, email them personally to reply on a public thread maybe?
12:45 < vogxn> chipc: agreed. just most. not all
12:45 < edison_cs> for example, last friday, john send an email on the list, but I missed
12:46 < edison_cs> 3 days later, I checked the email
12:46 < bhaisaab> jzb: but edison_cs for example codes a lot and I can understand we cannot have time everyday to go through all the emails
12:46 ! noa ~textual@h-214-68.a258.priv.bahnhof.se has joined #cloudstack-meeting
12:46 < bhaisaab> *we->he
12:46 < jzb> bhaisaab: ever seen LKML?
12:47 < bhaisaab> jzb: sure
12:47 < bhaisaab> jzb: get your point
12:47 < edison_cs> jzb: http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/reporting_code_bugs.html
12:47 < edison_cs> CCing relevant people
12:47 < edison_cs> IMPORTANT: Most kernel developers do not read every message that gets sent to LKML or monitor every bug report submitted to the bugzilla.
12:48 < edison_cs> that's exactly what I am trying to say
12:48 < bhaisaab> jzb: it mentions to cc, I don't mind being cc-ed so I've identitied people who don't like being cc-ed and I avoid cc-ing them
12:48 < bhaisaab> this can be one way
12:49 < jzb> I stand, well sit, corrected
12:49 < jzb> I still think there are horrible problems with the expectation to be CC'ed
12:49 < vogxn> i guess we agree that cc can solve some communication gaps
12:50 < bhaisaab> jzb: other thing is you cannot compare any asf project to the kernel, they have a tree strucuture with linus at the top, ours is more like a graph
12:50 < jzb> bhaisaab: true
12:50 < jzb> anyway - edison_cs can you take the CC proposal to the list and CC the relevant people? (smile)
12:51 < topcloud> jzb: lol
12:51 < jzb> and are we ready to call it a meeting?
12:51 < bhaisaab> jzb: so maybe cc-ing may make more sense, I would cc people who have shown that they are not available all the time to reply or are able to follow emails regularly, I av
12:51 < bhaisaab> I avoid people who do
12:51 < bhaisaab> jzb: let's do it
12:51 < topcloud> i actually prefer to be cc as well.
12:51 * bhaisaab /me too
12:52 < bhaisaab> topcloud: just avoid people who don't like being cc-ed
12:52 < chipc> wow - ok… let's take it to the list to see what the general reaction is
12:52 < topcloud> anyhow let's call it. it's 11
12:52 < jzb> OK, let's call it a day
12:52 < jzb> thanks everyone for participating.
12:52 < vogxn> 0030h here
12:52 * bhaisaab /me off to work
12:52 < chipc> it's still not a record meeting, but this was certainly a long one
12:52 < chipc> cheers
12:52 < vogxn> bye everyone
12:52 * bhaisaab o/ next wed
12:52 < jzb> #endmeeting

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